Curse

Wenspire · Dec 28, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

Yes, but this is where restoration ritualists shine as well. Their spot heals are extremely powerful, so they can afford to bring such huge party maintenance skills. You'd have to get at least 2 enchantments/hexes on your target just to match the healing from spirit light with dwayna's kiss, and that's with healer's boon. The unconditional raw healing I can get from a restoration ritualist easily matches a monk when used correctly, even if that monk has HB or UA, and even then I can still split attributes to further assist my party. I also get condition removal in the same attribute, allowing for further bar compression. Monks have a huge advantage when it comes to preprotting, since shelter is sometimes a bit tricky to work with PuGs, but I've yet to see a viable argument against the healing/support capabilities of a ritualist.

Actually, at 15 restoration vs 15 heal/13 divfav (which is what I normally run on healing builds), it only requires 1 enchant/hex for dwayna's kiss to rival spirit light and no condition for ethereal light to surpass it, with hb active. Both skills also cast in half the time which is an important quality in a pressure situation.

With soul twisting, there shouldn't be problems having shelter ready ever at any time.

A11Eur0 · Dec 28, 2010, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

My ST hero needs minimal micro. It's a stupid bar that I would never play as a player.

Boon of creation (optional)-->ST--> Shelter--> union ---> Displacement--> Armor of unfeeling
2-3 optionals.

If someone can't 1-2-3-4-5-6 and pop a spirit when it goes down they deserve to be shot with Magebane to the face. And ST has instant recharge so that wouldn't do much.

ST is 15 sec recharge and with 16 communing only gives you 3 spirit buffs. If you're running shelter, displacement AND union in a big mob, all three will go down pretty quickly, leaving your hero sitting there with his thumb up his posterior...or toasting his/her energy on full-cost full-recharge spirits.

I run an ST build on my rit, and I'm better at it than a hero. It's not just button-mashing. If it's mostly physicals, I don't even use shelter. If it's mostly casters, I don't use displacement. And if i use shelter, I don't use union, because my healers don't need that extra damage mitigation. So it's either shelter x3, or displacement + union x2 (because ST usually recharges in time to refresh it), then the mob is dead, especially with armor of unfeeling. It's not as in-depth as, say, prot in PvP but it can be made much more useful if someone actually paying attention to damage sources is running it. It's easier on energy, and allows for more up-time with spirits.

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2010, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

I run an ST build on my rit, and I'm better at it than a hero. It's not just button-mashing. If it's mostly physicals, I don't even use shelter. If it's mostly casters, I don't use displacement. And if i use shelter, I don't use union, because my healers don't need that extra damage mitigation. So it's either shelter x3, or displacement + union x2 (because ST usually recharges in time to refresh it), then the mob is dead, especially with armor of unfeeling. It's not as in-depth as, say, prot in PvP but it can be made much more useful if someone actually paying attention to damage sources is running it. It's easier on energy, and allows for more up-time with spirits.

Yes. Humans are better with ST for this reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

ST is 15 sec recharge and with 16 communing only gives you 3 spirit buffs. If you're running shelter, displacement AND union in a big mob, all three will go down pretty quickly, leaving your hero sitting there with his thumb up his posterior...or toasting his/her energy on full-cost full-recharge spirits.

I use an ST hero, and I can assure you that this is not true. While they are not as good at it as a human, they are more than good enough for most situations.

LifeInfusion · Dec 29, 2010, 01:49 AM // 01:49

A11Euro0, I can micro the spirits. It's not that hard since they are in the effect monitor and the recharge on ST is seen in the hero bar. The only thing a human rit has over a hero is summon spirits and PVE crap.

I've never had "a big mob" that annihilates all the spirits. If you have a big mob it usually means you aggroed too much.

AndroBubbles · Dec 29, 2010, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Actually, at 15 restoration vs 15 heal/13 divfav (which is what I normally run on healing builds), it only requires 1 enchant/hex for dwayna's kiss to rival spirit light and no condition for ethereal light to surpass it, with hb active. Both skills also cast in half the time which is an important quality in a pressure situation.

With soul twisting, there shouldn't be problems having shelter ready ever at any time.

Ah, I forgot to factor in the divine favor bonus, but that alone really just tells me that a ritualist is perfectly capable of healing on its own, considering it can rival a monk's healing without another attribute devoted. I also don't see how the reduced casting time makes that much difference if you're doing your job properly.

I like running ST as much as the next person, but I prefer to use it with people that I know can actually kill things properly. I prefer not to have to spend 2-3 minutes trying to keep shelter up against 10 hard mode enemies when my team can't kill squat.

A11Eur0 · Dec 29, 2010, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

A11Euro0, I can micro the spirits. It's not that hard since they are in the effect monitor and the recharge on ST is seen in the hero bar. The only thing a human rit has over a hero is summon spirits and PVE crap.

I've never had "a big mob" that annihilates all the spirits. If you have a big mob it usually means you aggroed too much.

urgoz/Deep says hi.

Wenspire · Dec 29, 2010, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

Ah, I forgot to factor in the divine favor bonus, but that alone really just tells me that a ritualist is perfectly capable of healing on its own, considering it can rival a monk's healing without another attribute devoted. I also don't see how the reduced casting time makes that much difference if you're doing your job properly.

I like running ST as much as the next person, but I prefer to use it with people that I know can actually kill things properly. I prefer not to have to spend 2-3 minutes trying to keep shelter up against 10 hard mode enemies when my team can't kill squat.

I find using skills taking under 1 sec to cast makes a big difference in saving a person in HM. It may not be in every situation, but certainly happens enough to make it worthwhile. If you've never come across a situation like that, it's probably because of one or more of these things: 1) you have a minion master present, 2) you have an imbagon in your party, or 3) your prot partner is doing a fantastic job. I use neither #1 or #2, and seldom come across #3 when I PUG.

Regarding Shelter, that would be a problem with your offensive-side team members and not a problem with the skill in itself. Not sure what the issue is there. There's nothing tricky about keeping Shelter up near-indefintely regardless of what team you are working with.

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2010, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

urgoz/Deep says hi.

Yes, because a human in that situation instead of a hero is going to be the difference between success and failure of the build.

LifeInfusion · Dec 29, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

12 man zones don't really count. You have 3 possible backliners (or 2 backline + 1 midliner with prots), so you can afford to drop another 1-2 copies of damage mitigation (i.e. Save Yourselves! + ER ele) so that Shelter/Union won't explode. People do DoA Frostway with ST rits, so Imbagon with ST is more than enough. And a 5 recharge Summon spirits won't help you in that situation. Seed of Life would.

AndroBubbles · Jan 04, 2011, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I find using skills taking under 1 sec to cast makes a big difference in saving a person in HM. It may not be in every situation, but certainly happens enough to make it worthwhile. If you've never come across a situation like that, it's probably because of one or more of these things: 1) you have a minion master present, 2) you have an imbagon in your party, or 3) your prot partner is doing a fantastic job. I use neither #1 or #2, and seldom come across #3 when I PUG.

Regarding Shelter, that would be a problem with your offensive-side team members and not a problem with the skill in itself. Not sure what the issue is there. There's nothing tricky about keeping Shelter up near-indefintely regardless of what team you are working with.

Considering I already said that the reason I don't always like running ST is because of the people I play with, and not an innate problem with the skill set, I don't see what the discussion point is about the build anymore.

If you aren't watching the field, even on a healing bar, you aren't doing your job. You can preemptively cast healing spells as well as protective spells. I hardly ever have problems catching spikes, even with spirit light. That doesn't mean that I've never had trouble, or that I've never wished I could get a half cast off at any point, but much more often than not, I'm fine with a 40/40 set, because I like to play proactively, even on a reactive bar.

P.S. - Ritualists have access to spirit transfer, which is a nice anti spike. I'll sometimes bring that when I don't trust the other support character on my team.

I Perma Mobs · Jan 07, 2011, 11:01 PM // 23:01

I don't understand how people drag this discussion so long. It's sort of like playing with pugs, really XD

Monks: Seed of life is incredibly overpowered and can only be run with monk primaries. This skill alone is enough for me to rather go monk than rit. a minimum of 6 seconds (5+1 from ench wep) of party wide heal is ridiculous. Have you ever done DoASC? Try using seed of life in foundry and see what happens

Then: UA is an instant rez with max health and energy. Another thing no ritualist could HOPE to match. And it works as a +50-60% more healing power on all monk heals.
HB is of a lowre efficiency than UA, but is still useful, because we get 50% faster casting times and no energy degen. Burst of Healing is also a good option over this.
And then we have spot heals. no more than d-kiss and p-spirit. It's all you need really. When playing in PvE, your heroes are supposed to be doing the pressure healing. They have alot faster reflexes than you have and they can mitigate dmg better, as well as drop a PwK faster. You get the spikes.
Thats how monk builds should be ran in pvE

Tbh, ritualists can't do any of these. Spot healing? sure, after 1 second cast time, and not nearly as strong as a patient spirit/d-kiss(cmon, every1 can easily hit the requirement. just from dwaynas sorrow that my JB hero spams on the party its 1 enchantment and almost all hero builds/henchies have enchs like masochism or attunements) On average my d-kiss heals for 250 health.
Rits only have 3 good skills 2 play with as resto. spirit transfer which is an incredibly awesome "infuse-like" skill, heals for a huge ammount of health at 10 energy, without any loss as severe as infuse. and its 1/4 cast. Mend body n soul is the other thing, synergizes very well with an SoS build. bad heal, but awesome anti condition. And then, PwK, can serve as an insta anti aoe.

So yeah, compare the two, and come tell me ritualists heal for more. Right. Ritualists won't have open spots for energy management like Monks do. Ritualists will mostly just overheal with their spirits (life, recuperation, preservation, etc etc, some1 said recup healed for 2500 health or sth, you only take advantage of roughly 200 of that. a), 8 wont have 8 party members below 100% health, and b) u cant move the spirit most of the times).

and above all, don't try to be a main healer ritualist in PvP.

Hint: if you're a ritualist, run DwG. It's fun

and stuff goes bum. (assuming you're running with spiritway heroes)

Bandwagon · Jan 08, 2011, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

Monks: Seed of life is incredibly overpowered and can only be run with monk primaries. This skill alone is enough for me to rather go monk than rit. a minimum of 6 seconds (5+1 from ench wep) of party wide heal is ridiculous. Have you ever done DoASC? Try using seed of life in foundry and see what happens

Seed of Life is a valid arguement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

Then: UA is an instant rez with max health and energy. Another thing no ritualist could HOPE to match. And it works as a +50-60% more healing power on all monk heals.HB is of a lowre efficiency than UA, but is still useful, because we get 50% faster casting times and no energy degen. Burst of Healing is also a good option over this.

This isn't, were talking about HB, I think we all know what UA and Healing Burst does. Too bad were talking about HB vs Rit resto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

When playing in PvE, your heroes are supposed to be doing the pressure healing. They have alot faster reflexes than you have and they can mitigate dmg better, as well as drop a PwK faster. You get the spikes.

If I wanted to catch spikes I would run Word of Healing, not HB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

Tbh, ritualists can't do any of these. Spot healing? sure, after 1 second cast time, and not nearly as strong as a patient spirit/d-kiss(cmon, every1 can easily hit the requirement. just from dwaynas sorrow that my JB hero spams on the party its 1 enchantment and almost all hero builds/henchies have enchs like masochism or attunements) On average my d-kiss heals for 250 health.

D-kiss is pretty easy to exploit with UA/HB. But WoH is nearly identical and as you said, both do what the human player is supposed to do, stop spikes. Hell, WoH works on yourself, is powerful irregardless of hex / enchant use and denial and gives you the HP when you need it, as a pose to overhealing. Without derailing, WoH provides more room for monks (especially human monks) to use prot and tri-spec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

Rits only have 3 good skills 2 play with as resto. spirit transfer which is an incredibly awesome "infuse-like" skill, heals for a huge ammount of health at 10 energy, without any loss as severe as infuse. and its 1/4 cast. Mend body n soul is the other thing, synergizes very well with an SoS build. bad heal, but awesome anti condition. And then, PwK, can serve as an insta anti aoe.

Rejuv and Life says hi. As does Weapon of Warding, Rit Lord, Spirit Channeling, Boon of Creation, Signet of Creation, Spirit Light etc.

hell if your running with multiple rits / GDW midline, throw in Wielder's Boon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

So yeah, compare the two, and come tell me ritualists heal for more. Right.

Assuming you are the authority figure in a topic where you provided absolutely no claim to your authority whatsoever is flawed to say the least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

Ritualists won't have open spots for energy management like Monks do.

Selfless Spirit.
Boon of Creation.
Signet of Creation.
Spirit Channeling.

Take one of these in your build, and you are fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

Ritualists will mostly just overheal with their spirits (life, recuperation, preservation, etc etc, some1 said recup healed for 2500 health or sth, you only take advantage of roughly 200 of that. a), 8 wont have 8 party members below 100% health, and b) u cant move the spirit most of the times).

They do have open slots, selfless spirit and Signet of Creation (assuming you are bringing 2-3 spirits). Mentioning Preservation is Lawlworthy, and only shows your ignorance in effective ritualist elites for resto (hint: there are very few). I agree with Point A, but Point B is not even an issue unless you bring recuperation / recovery.

If you use Rit Lord, you can actually control the party heal of Life since it recharges more quickly. assuming ~12-14 in resto + the rit lord bonus you can heal a group for 90ish after 8 seconds (then account for rejuv and/or PwK). Assuming your party is not under Perma IMS, the newly placed Life will still be within spirit range and die, providing the party heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

and above all, don't try to be a main healer ritualist in PvP.

That is pretty random, where would anyone get that idea in this thread?

Kunder · Jan 08, 2011, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I really don't see why people are even talking about spike healing. Monsters in PvE don't coordinate attacks at all and are not spiking. Either you have enough passive protection that no one is getting spiked down or you don't have enough passive protection and everyone is getting spiked down (200 damage autoattacks lol). A healer's answer to the first case should be to bring more party healing; Their answer to the second should be to tell their damn frontliners/midliners to bring more passive protection.

If you ever need more then a 200ish heal in a single spell then you are simply playing wrong. It may look cool to heal 90% of a health bar with a single spell, but playing that way is unsafe and protecting players from the damage in the first place is massively better for party defense. As such, I don't understand Healer's Boon players at all. And I hate how every time I see the letters 'HB' I think its a Healing Burst monk, which is totally awesome and I always want in my party. Then when they ping their build I see lame Healer's Boon

LifeInfusion · Jan 08, 2011, 02:33 AM // 02:33

This discussion has been drawn out but a Healing Burst + UA monk backline is stronger than Healer's Boon + UA backline.

UA: Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight = 89 ; gift of health = 170ish+DF, Dismiss condition is anywhere from 80 to 90+DF
Healing Burst+Arcane mimicry + Heaven's Delight , Healing Burst
14 DF = 89
13 Heal Prayers = 140 Healing Burst --> 228 after 16 DF UA

If the party does get spiked hard, you have 3-4 copies of a party heal, plus Healing burst mops up whatever is left. Heaven's Delight + Healing Burst AoE heal is already 133, so if you still need more than that (say you got hit by Spirit Rift because you have no damage mitigation) you can just pop a Divine Healing for another 89.

Healing Burst heals anywhere from 220 to 244 or so with UA up, so to match that a HB bar has to have a heal with 100 base heal that doesn't have a conditional. You can get by with just Healing Burst spam. The best part is if your enchantments get stripped you still heal more than ethereal light, with no conditional.

The way I see it, the only thing decent about Healer's Boon is when you pair it up with UA and then run Dwayna's kiss on a team with an ER ele. But how is that useful? With UA you already have a big heal, so HB+UA would just overheal. A Minion master or elementalist might have 2-3 enchantments without an ER ele in the party, so D-Kiss would heal more than Burst. Without 3 enchantments, Burst heals more even when you run HB+UA.

Now, if you could run prots on a mimicry Healer's Boon bar then I'd use the skill. You only have 1 free slot, which is most likely condition removal or Prot Spirit.

1 D-Kiss <-- main skill
2 Ethereal
3 Healer's Boon
4 Mimicry
5 Seed
6 Heal Party <-- 2nd main skill, needs e-management
7 Cure Hex/Prot Spirit
8 Energy Management (Lightbringer Signet/Glyph of Lesser energy)

I Perma Mobs · Jan 08, 2011, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs
Then: UA is an instant rez with max health and energy. Another thing no ritualist could HOPE to match. And it works as a +50-60% more healing power on all monk heals.HB is of a lowre efficiency than UA, but is still useful, because we get 50% faster casting times and no energy degen. Burst of Healing is also a good option over this.

This isn't, were talking about HB, I think we all know what UA and Healing Burst does. Too bad were talking about HB vs Rit resto.

You were. OP was. But the discussion got carried away and this was about that.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs
When playing in PvE, your heroes are supposed to be doing the pressure healing. They have alot faster reflexes than you have and they can mitigate dmg better, as well as drop a PwK faster. You get the spikes.

If I wanted to catch spikes I would run Word of Healing, not HB.

Word of healing= 1 second cast. HB= all monk healing prayer spells except for heal party are cast below 1 second.
Spikes require you to have a fast cast so you can save the target in time. You'd run WoH? interesting choice indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs
Tbh, ritualists can't do any of these. Spot healing? sure, after 1 second cast time, and not nearly as strong as a patient spirit/d-kiss(cmon, every1 can easily hit the requirement. just from dwaynas sorrow that my JB hero spams on the party its 1 enchantment and almost all hero builds/henchies have enchs like masochism or attunements) On average my d-kiss heals for 250 health.

D-kiss is pretty easy to exploit with UA/HB. But WoH is nearly identical and as you said, both do what the human player is supposed to do, stop spikes. Hell, WoH works on yourself, is powerful irregardless of hex / enchant use and denial and gives you the HP when you need it, as a pose to overhealing. Without derailing, WoH provides more room for monks (especially human monks) to use prot and tri-spec.

point? you don't contradict me on my argument that ritus can't do what I said they couldn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs
Rits only have 3 good skills 2 play with as resto. spirit transfer which is an incredibly awesome "infuse-like" skill, heals for a huge ammount of health at 10 energy, without any loss as severe as infuse. and its 1/4 cast. Mend body n soul is the other thing, synergizes very well with an SoS build. bad heal, but awesome anti condition. And then, PwK, can serve as an insta anti aoe.

Rejuv and Life says hi. As does Weapon of Warding, Rit Lord, Spirit Channeling, Boon of Creation, Signet of Creation, Spirit Light etc.

hell if your running with multiple rits / GDW midline, throw in Wielder's Boon.

Rejuvenation is over heal over heal over heal. waste of health. It only lives 7 seconds at 14 resto and doesn't do a crap tbh.
Life: stuff will be dead before it gets to the 20 seconds timer most of the time. even if not everything is dead, at least 50% of the mob will, which means that your party won't be under so much pressure, which in turn means life will only over heal.

Ritual Lord: are you serious??? hardly worth it. all other elites are better.
Spirit Channeling: indeed, I did forget about this. It does help a rit manage energy. It doesn't change the fact that their healing skills suck though.
Boon of Creation costs more than it gives back. and takes 2 seconds to cast, making your PvE life boring.
Spirit light: Barely a heal if the condition isn't met (easy to meet though, so let's not consider it). It won't heal more than a DF kiss. I wouldn't consider it a GOOD heal.
WoW: 10 energy says hi compared to guardian. and weren't we talking about healing, not protting? WoW isn't a heal.

Quote:

Assuming you are the authority figure in a topic where you provided absolutely no claim to your authority whatsoever is flawed to say the least.

What's that about authority? I just don't want people to come telling me that rits are better than monks without showing any proof of it. Nearly all arguments presented here have been flawed, at least. Those that haven't are still not enough argumentation to make monks less desirable.

Quote:

Selfless Spirit.
Boon of Creation.
Signet of Creation.
Spirit Channeling.

Take one of these in your build, and you are fine.

Selfless spirit requires you to go /mo, while a monk running it (and they should) does not. Disadvantage compared to monks.
Boon of creation: you're not running SoS. it's not energy management. It costs more energy than it gives back (usually you only run 1 spirit or 2) and it cannot be used as an active energy management skill.
Signet of creation will grant 4-8 energy, with 20 secs recharge, seeing to how its spirits YOU control. It also requires a pre-cast of your own spirits to be effective, which might not be desirable.
Spirit Channeling: only management thats hardly useful, and sadly requires an elite slot. This skill is overpowered imho, but yes, this would work. but takes elite slot out, so, I didn't include it in my calcs.

Come to the conclusion that you just wasted a LONG time to post that reply and accomplished very little. Made you think though, so that's good I guess?

TYVm for listening. When i feel like it I'll comment on the rest of the answer that Bandwagon said. Currently cba. Feel free to Pm me ig if u want. ign is my user name here.

AndroBubbles · Jan 10, 2011, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

Word of healing= 1 second cast. HB= all monk healing prayer spells except for heal party are cast below 1 second.
Spikes require you to have a fast cast so you can save the target in time. You'd run WoH? interesting choice indeed.

This alone makes me want to ignore the rest of your post, but let's address this. WoH has a 3/4 second cast time. The fact that you can't remember something as elementary to monking as this is amusing to say the least. Also, please tell me what the huge difference between 1 second and 1/2 second is when you're playing proactively, as you should be? If I'm worried about spike damage, I take spirit transfer. I usually don't have to worry about that though.

Quote:

Rejuvenation is over heal over heal over heal. waste of health. It only lives 7 seconds at 14 resto and doesn't do a crap tbh.
Life: stuff will be dead before it gets to the 20 seconds timer most of the time. even if not everything is dead, at least 50% of the mob will, which means that your party won't be under so much pressure, which in turn means life will only over heal.

Ritual Lord: are you serious??? hardly worth it. all other elites are better.
Spirit Channeling: indeed, I did forget about this. It does help a rit manage energy. It doesn't change the fact that their healing skills suck though.
Boon of Creation costs more than it gives back. and takes 2 seconds to cast, making your PvE life boring.
Spirit light: Barely a heal if the condition isn't met (easy to meet though, so let's not consider it). It won't heal more than a DF kiss. I wouldn't consider it a GOOD heal.
WoW: 10 energy says hi compared to guardian. and weren't we talking about healing, not protting? WoW isn't a heal.

-I'm not overly fond of Rejuvenation, as it's not very time effective, and can't match up to Life, so I'll ignore that bit.
-Life on the otherhand, is absolutely godly. The trick is precasting it, since it has a fairly large range. That you don't realize something as simple as this when restoration ritualists have been using this tactic for years is yet another thing wrong with the approach of your analysis.
-Ritual lord has its uses. Again, not one of my favorite elites for pve, especially restoration ritualists, but it does have a few purposes that it does well.
-I'll skip Spirit Channeling and BoC, since one is obviously very good and the other one is a bit more suited to a different attribute.
-I'll just copy you and skip the condition for Spirit Light here. What is bad about a heal for 172 at 14 Restoration that does not take up your elite slot and does not require another attribute (or multiple enchantments/hexes) to achieve its level of healing?
-WoW is a nice option for restoration ritualists, especially if your PuG monk is mentally disabled and refuses to run prots. An effective 10 second Guardian (attributes allowing) that cannot be removed by enemies and provides up to about 80 points of regenerated health seems pretty snazzy. Not only is it a decent use of energy when used properly, ritualists have such amazing energy management that this will hardly dent your blue bar.

Quote:

What's that about authority? I just don't want people to come telling me that rits are better than monks without showing any proof of it. Nearly all arguments presented here have been flawed, at least. Those that haven't are still not enough argumentation to make monks less desirable.

I don't see how you have any authority when you don't even remember the basic mechanics of arguably the most popular monk elite in the game. Most of your arguments would make more sense if everybody played as badly as your standards seem to assume they do.

Quote:

Selfless spirit requires you to go /mo, while a monk running it (and they should) does not. Disadvantage compared to monks.
Boon of creation: you're not running SoS. it's not energy management. It costs more energy than it gives back (usually you only run 1 spirit or 2) and it cannot be used as an active energy management skill.
Signet of creation will grant 4-8 energy, with 20 secs recharge, seeing to how its spirits YOU control. It also requires a pre-cast of your own spirits to be effective, which might not be desirable.
Spirit Channeling: only management thats hardly useful, and sadly requires an elite slot. This skill is overpowered imho, but yes, this would work. but takes elite slot out, so, I didn't include it in my calcs.

-Selfless spirit is just one of the plethora of options a ritualist has when it comes to energy management. I could say that it's an advantage to ritualists that I do not have to use my primary to get the most use from this skill. This skill means that not only do I still only require one attribute for my healing, it also reduces the cost of any offensive/utility based skills I may use on my allies. See, the cool thing about ritualists is that we can provide great healing while still contributing to the offensive/utility capabilities of our teammates.
-Signet of creation is actually decent, assuming you don't burn through your energy pool in about 10 seconds, which usually shouldn't be happening if half your team is decent, and especially not if you know how to play proactively and manage energy. It's just not as effective with spirits as expensive as Recuperation, and plays more to a style that involves rhythmic usage of lower-costing spirits.
-Spirit channeling says hi because it means I need ONE skill to power my entire bar, with almost no regard for the cost of my other skills. This skill is so good that I don't even know why you bothered to diss it as a possible elite for restoration ritualists. The fact that you did not take it into your "calculations" is what's wrong with your approach.

Quote:

Come to the conclusion that you just wasted a LONG time to post that reply and accomplished very little. Made you think though, so that's good I guess?

TYVm for listening. When i feel like it I'll comment on the rest of the answer that Bandwagon said. Currently cba. Feel free to Pm me ig if u want. ign is my user name here.

What is this

I Perma Mobs · Jan 10, 2011, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

I'm not overly fond of Rejuvenation, as it's not very time effective, and can't match up to Life, so I'll ignore that bit.

if you'll ignore it, why mention it in the first place?!?!?!

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WoH has a 3/4 second cast time

<--ups.

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what the huge difference between 1 second and 1/2 second is when you're playing proactively

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If I'm worried about spike damage, I take spirit transfer

You contradict yourself. 1 second (actually 3/4 right?) to 1/2 is 1/2 (1/4 in theory) casting difference.
However, you say that if u wanted to catch spikes youd run a 1/4 casting spell.

3/4-1/2= 1/4 (woh to Hb d-kiss)
1/2 -1/4 = 1/4 (difference between, say, d-kiss and transfer)

You say the difference isn't meaningful. Then why would you run spirit transfer if the difference (1/2 seconds or 1/4 seconds, depending on what you're using) isn't significant?
Answer is, it IS significant, imho. As some1 else said, you should be protting most of the party. So, in the cases you do take damage, it'll be from a lvl 26-36 bastard that can strike for 50-800 per hit. you'll need as much speed as u can get, though after 600 damage it won't really help :P

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Life on the otherhand, is absolutely godly. The trick is precasting it, since it has a fairly large range. That you don't realize something as simple as this when restoration ritualists have been using this tactic for years is yet another thing wrong with the approach of your analysis.

of course you can. means you won't be able to reach the front-line in time though. It's a risk.

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Ritual lord has its uses. Again, not one of my favorite elites for pve, especially restoration ritualists, but it does have a few purposes that it does well.

same thing as rejuvenation. WHY on earth mention it, if you say you'll ignore it? and on top of that, it means you can't take your so-loved spirit channeling.

WoW: 50% block for 7 seconds (8 with 14 resto. with your spawning power, should go up to 10). regen? lol? that's not healing. heros remove all conditions unless its aoe wide(and even then..) and suffering is rare.
so yeah. 10 energy block. also note guardian will be increased by enchantment weapon, means it'll last 8 seconds on a prot monk.
NOT talking about proting, are we?
And to counter your argument of assuming the monk is shit:

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Most of your arguments would make more sense if everybody played as badly as your standards seem to assume they do.

contradicting yourself again. By your own words, the prot monk won't suck. And don't say it was an assumption, cause if it was, you wouldn't have brought WoW on your bar at the time you found out the monk sucked youd already be in the area, fighting.

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I could say that it's an advantage to ritualists that I do not have to use my primary to get the most use from this skill

How could you say this, when the ONLY other class doing major heals is monk? (note, this skill is monk). It just doesn't make any sense. It's blockhead tbh.

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ritualists have such amazing energy management that this will hardly dent your blue bar

assuming you take spirit channeling. This is where guardians advantage steps in: 5 energy. doesnt need awesome energy management.

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Signet of creation is actually decent, assuming you don't burn through your energy pool in about 10 seconds.

Assuming you're bringing life and recovery. signet of creation will only cover life's expense (and not even that. 8 energy instead of 10). Basically it means that 1 of your skills costs no energy and occupies another skill slot for that. Nope, not decent. You're saying that the way to counter this is to go easy and let other people do your job, making your energy easier to manage by not using skills at all. That is NOT effective energy management.

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This skill is so good that I don't even know why you bothered to diss it as a possible elite for restoration ritualists

I have agreed already that Spirit Chaneling works.
I forgot about it. Simple as that. it's the meaning of "didn't take it into my calculations".

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What is this?

answering to this: It's words. Words typed in a reply to a thread started at guildwarsguru. Any further questions?

Also, this isn't bringing us anywhere tbh. For me, it's clear that HB monks are still capable of healing more effectively and especially, more proactively, which is the way to go. You believe ritus are just as capable/better. Ok. Even through discussion I probably can't change this. The fact is that pugs will keep taking HB monks because they KNOW it works. Hell, it's not gonna change in the near future unless theres a new skill "balance".

I'm through this argument :P (if you do, however, answer, dw, I'll read it)

AndroBubbles · Jan 10, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

You contradict yourself. 1 second (actually 3/4 right?) to 1/2 is 1/2 (1/4 in theory) casting difference.
However, you say that if u wanted to catch spikes youd run a 1/4 casting spell.

3/4-1/2= 1/4 (woh to Hb d-kiss)
1/2 -1/4 = 1/4 (difference between, say, d-kiss and transfer)

You say the difference isn't meaningful. Then why would you run spirit transfer if the difference (1/2 seconds or 1/4 seconds, depending on what you're using) isn't significant?
Answer is, it IS significant, imho. As some1 else said, you should be protting most of the party. So, in the cases you do take damage, it'll be from a lvl 26-36 bastard that can strike for 50-800 per hit. you'll need as much speed as u can get, though after 600 damage it won't really help :P

If you actually read any of this thread, you would have already seen that I do not usually use spirit transfer if I have a half-decent team. It is a fail-safe spell that I use on occasion if I think I may need it. I fail to see how this is contradictory, and the fact remains that it's a good spell for its purpose.

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of course you can. means you won't be able to reach the front-line in time though. It's a risk.

By precasting the spirit you are making sure that you're in range of your team BEFORE the battle starts.

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same thing as rejuvenation. WHY on earth mention it, if you say you'll ignore it? and on top of that, it means you can't take your so-loved spirit channeling.

I'm addressing it without continuing the discussion about it, so that I'm not ignoring parts of your post, in the event that you may care about that. And your sentence is badly worded here. I'm assuming you mean that by taking Ritual Lord I cannot take Spirit channeling. I would certainly hope that if you have RL that you have some form of energy management to keep up with the spirit spamming, but it's not that hard to achieve that with the available options.

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WoW: 50% block for 7 seconds (8 with 14 resto. with your spawning power, should go up to 10). regen? lol? that's not healing. heros remove all conditions unless its aoe wide(and even then..) and suffering is rare.
so yeah. 10 energy block. also note guardian will be increased by enchantment weapon, means it'll last 8 seconds on a prot monk.
NOT talking about proting, are we?
And to counter your argument of assuming the monk is shit:

contradicting yourself again. By your own words, the prot monk won't suck. And don't say it was an assumption, cause if it was, you wouldn't have brought WoW on your bar at the time you found out the monk sucked youd already be in the area, fighting.

Health regen is a form of healing, whether you like it or not. I don't know why you're bringing up conditions here, since they have nothing to do with the skill. I personally like being able to have an unstrippable small heal+50% block that lasts a little longer than guardian, and if I'm able to manage my energy around it, it's all the better.

I'm not talking about the entire GW population here, but the way you talk it's as if everybody is bad, whereas I talk about skills in terms of their potential in the event that they're being used by a good player. I do not argue that some people are bad, and when I'm with a PuG I will allow for this by taking fail-safe skills sometimes. It seems (according to you) that by slightly altering a build to accommodate for another person's lack of experience I am contradicting my entire mindset for the game, and I'm not entirely sure why this is true.

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How could you say this, when the ONLY other class doing major heals is monk? (note, this skill is monk). It just doesn't make any sense. It's blockhead tbh.

Ok, so what use do you get from selfless spirit aside from spamming target heals when you're on a monk, and what brilliant secondary profession do you take that makes this so obviously inferior to use on a ritualist? My point is that I can incorporate selfless spirit as energy management into not only healing builds, but hybrid builds that assist with damage/utility, while maintaining decent healing capability.

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assuming you take spirit channeling. This is where guardians advantage steps in: 5 energy. doesnt need awesome energy management.

I'm under the impression that you think I'm hating on Guardian. I'm not debating whether or not it's a good skill. You simply listed a skill and said it was bad. I provided counter-examples that you have yet to address the entire list of.

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Assuming you're bringing life and recovery. signet of creation will only cover life's expense (and not even that. 8 energy instead of 10). Basically it means that 1 of your skills costs no energy and occupies another skill slot for that. Nope, not decent. You're saying that the way to counter this is to go easy and let other people do your job, making your energy easier to manage by not using skills at all. That is NOT effective energy management.

Effective energy management is knowing when to use your skills, and using them in a way that best works in conjunction with your team. I have a few builds that use Signet of Creation, and they seem to work well enough in most situations.

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I have agreed already that Spirit Chaneling works.
I forgot about it. Simple as that. it's the meaning of "didn't take it into my calculations".

My point is that your argument is incomplete when you do not take things like that into account.

And PuGs insist on bringing HB because it's a common build that works, not because it's the most efficient option.[/QUOTE]

Bandwagon · Jan 11, 2011, 01:03 AM // 01:03

People including I Perma Mobs like to compare apples to oranges, unless your HB monk is bringing Guardian, don't compare guardian to Weapon of Warding, because a resto rit can bring both it and redbar to the table.

If your getting hit for 80-100 damage, weapon of warding is vastly superior energy wise to Dwaynas Kiss, regardless of overhealing.

If .25 seconds is the difference between a death and a safe ally, your a bad player and your bar sucks (course, your team build could also be lacking for the area.

Rejuvenation is a smart heal, it only heals party members that need the health, unless they are taking <~8-9 damage the periodic health gain will not be wasted in any meaningful way to make the spirit terrible.

Rit Lord lets you spam Life and Rejuv for crazy party heals, Life's recharge shortens and its "on death" effect becomes more potent with rit lord, allowing the ritualist to cast Life almost seemingly back to back (with a bit brief lapse of around ~8-10 seconds) for smaller (yet still potent when comparing Heal Party).

Rejuv + Rit lord = stronger Rejuv that can be easily replaced by another Rejuv when the other eventually dies out.

Time for numbers.

This evaluation is between a 14 HP 13 DF HB Monk and a 14 Resto 13 SP Rit

This experiment assumes your choice of Rez is unimportant, as it does not bring any sort of hindrance to your overall heal style (ofc haters are prolly gunna hate over this).

HB Monk (cuz thats what this is about amirite?)

-Dwayna's Kiss
-Patient Spirit
-LoLrison of Health (orison of health)
-Heal Party
-Glyph of Lesser Energy
-Ethereal Light
-Selfless Spirit
-HB (durr, it will be used for calculations)
-Word Of Comfort
-Cure Hex
-Spotless Mind/Soul
-Signet of Rejuvenation
-Vigorous Spirit
-Seed of Life

I will be number crunching the heals that are commonly used (no point in showing numbers for Orison, as everyone knows its terrible compared to the better redbar).

D-kiss
57 +33 per ench/hex * 1.5 (HB) +42 = 85 + 49 per ench/hex +42
heals for 127 with no ench/hex, though that is rarely the case

3 second recharge with a 0.5 cast time (can be used every 3.5 seconds)

Patient Spirit
114 * 1.5 (HB) +42 = 171 + 42 = 213 two second delay (hardly an issue unless your prots suck). Recharge is 4 seconds, with a .125 cast time (can be used every 4.125 seconds)

Cure Hex
114 * 1.5 (HB) + 42 = 171 + 42 = 213 requires a hex, and removes a hex.
Recharge is 12 seconds plus a cast time of 0.5 seconds. (can be used every 12.5 seconds)

Heal Party
72 * 1.5 (HB) +42 on self = 108 to all party members and an additional 42 to you. Constrains energy unless you use glyph. (Has a recharge of 2 seconds and a cast time of 1 second, not recommended for prolong use with its 15e cost). To use this skill back to back with a Glyph requires ~7 seconds (it will feel as such with the .75 after cast delay on all skills used). This can be done every 30 seconds.

Glyph Cast - 1 second
0.75 after cast
Cast Heal Party
0.75 after cast
Dead time, waiting for recharge - 2 seconds
Cast Heal Party
Aftercast delay(irrelevant since the entire effect is realized)

Glyph of Lesser Energy
-10 on energy cost of next two spells within 15 seconds of activation for 5e. 30 second recharge. Assuming you use it with Heal Party, this nets you (20-5)/31 energy per second ~0.48 energy per second if used on recharge for heal party, much less if used on 5e spells.

Signet of Rejuvenation
-not always seen, might as well mention it though since it is a free heal.
71 HP + 71 HP if used on someone attacking / casting (not you or a kiting friend) = 142 when used correctly, otherwise mediocre.

Seed of Life
-Hard to quantify, since its effect behaves more like a prot with area effect then a heal, it is still very good and a very potent reason to bring a monk. It's behavior and effect is based on how many times the target gets hit.

I can add any other spells to the calc if desired.

Resto Rit

Skills seen:

-Life
-Rejuvenation
-Mend Body and Soul
-Spirit Light
-Weapon of Warding (it may be prot, but it can be brought effortlessly)
-Protective was Kaolai
-Spirit Channeling
-Ritual Lord
-Recovery (might as well mention it)
-Recuperation
-Xinrai's Weapon (lol worthy considering it is elite)
-Weapon of Remedy (with MBAS, it is in the same boat)
-Attuned was Songkai + Serpent's Quickness (give up on Prot was Kao and Selfless spirit)
-Selfless Spirit (unless your secondary is required, there is no reason not to go /mo if you want extra e management)
- Spirit Transfer
- Boon Of Creation
-Signet of Creation

Mend Body and Soul
109 HP + 1 condition per spirit in earshot. 3 second recharge, 3/4 second cast. can be used every 3.75 seconds or so. Compared to HB, MBAS grants instant condi removal to the target and its condition is easy to meet (Word of Comfort is lulzy compared to other heals and Spotless Soul periodically removes conditions).

Spirit Light
172 HP 4 second recharge, 1 second cast. Can be used every 5 seconds or so. Health sac if not near a spirit (easy to meet condition). Slow heal, heals for more then most ritualist redbar skills, usually used in situations where you need a strong heal, and the target is not in danger of dying.

Weapon Of Warding
12 second 50% block chance (when you factor in SP), 5 second recharge, 1 second cast, can be used every 6 seconds. (has HP regen to boot, but its too negligible to quantify, you don't cast it for the regen)

Protective Was Kaolai
10e cost, 25 recharge 1 sec cast, can be saved back to back. heals for 80 HP to all allies. every ~26 seconds you can use a back to back kaolai drop for 160 HP, requires ~3 seconds and 10e ~26 seconds ago and 10e immediately to perform this.

Life
Heals for 7 HP per second alive (up to 20 seconds) to all party members in spirit range (halfway between compass and radar-minimap range). Its duration = to its recharge, can be placed every 20.75 seconds.

Important to note - huge synergy with Rit lord, not only does it heal for 8 per second alive. But its recharge will be much less, allowing a prospective player to drop a Life within spirit range of another Life to quickly mop up damage for a minimum of ~80 HP (IE within 10 seconds of the 1st Life placement) to all party members. This skill is great for passive party heals when the party pressure is present, but risk of immediate death is small. It also heals minions.

Rejuvenation
10e, 30 second recharge, can be used every 30.75 seconds. Heals party members within ear shot for 10 HP per second (no overheal to worry about). At 14 resto 13 SP, it has 654 health to give among your party members, for an average of 82 health for 8 party members. With Rit Lord, its recharge is essentially ~14-15 seconds, with 890 HP, for an average of 111 health to all party members.

Recuperation
25e, 45 second recharge, 43 duration, 51 with Rit lord. Heals all party members for +3 regen. Requires a rune switch to get to 19 resto when casting with rit lord to heal all party members for +4 regen. Almost requires Summon Spirit. Only advisable in areas with very large amounts of prot (ER or Soul Twister).

Spirit Transfer
10e, 5 sec recharge, can be cast every 5.25 seconds. Heals a target for 47*5 HP = 235 HP

Signet of Creation
20 second recharge, grants 4 energy per spirit, up to a max of 11 energy

Efficiency:

With 1 spirit: - 4e/21seconds = 0.19e/sec
With 2 spirits: - 8e/21 seconds = 0.38e/sec
With 3 spirits: - 11e/21 seconds = 0.52e/sec

Boon of Creation
Hard to measure, however at a glance it halves Life's and Rejuv's e cost. Assuming you do not use a 20% ench lengthen mod. Boon Lasts 54 seconds which is essentially a minute. Without Rit Lord, Life is cast 3 times per minute and Rejuv is cast twice per minute, though this is hardly required unless your parties' prot sucks that bad

. 10e was subtracted from the cost for the people QQing about its 10e cost, though with proper casting inbetween battles the cost can be trivialized, nevertheless.

With Life, no Rejuv: 15e-10e/60 = 0.083e/sec
With Life and Rejuv: 15e+10e-10e = 0.4e/sec
With Rejuv, no Life: breakeven, no benefit LOL

These calculations assume you do not follow the fact that the cast time intrinsically increases the recharge time of the spirit by ~1 second.

Spirit Channeling
5e cost, gain 11e if you are within range of a spirit. 5e regen over 12 seconds (more with a ench lengthen mod), can be used every 31 seconds.

6e+ ((12*5)/3)/31 = 1.16e/sec when given e regen, 3 pips of e regen is equivalent to 1 energy gained per second.

All spells with conditions associated with spirits did not account for spirit cost because a good resto should be laying down spirits/ congregating around spirits anyway

.

I did not include some of the other rit skills if asked, I will calc them to the best of my ability.

When glancing at the results:

-HB monks have superb HP/sec on single target heals compared to resto.
-HB party heals are limited by energy, and the tools to heal your party efficiently are limited by recharge, it takes a little while to get the stream of party heals flowing though seed of Life remedies this with correct usage.
-Resto has a lot more e management options available to it, and can effortlessly add one or more e-management skills to their bar to counteract the less efficient heals.
-Resto's party heals are numerous, can be added in 1s or 2s to a bar without a huge loss in bar space.
-HB requires precision on the human player's part (heroes know when to heal for max efficiency) to prevent overheal (otherwise the strength is wasted).
-The Resto's Party heals require more user precision in skill usage and preperation, prot was kaolai requires preemptive bundle holding if a spike in damage is anticipated, as does Life. Rit Lord is needed for Life and Rejuv to get to max effect. Rejuv is a smart heal party that heals people when they need it though it only lasts in earshot range.

That is what I found from looking at all the tools both backliners have to complete their jobs.

In my mortal opinion I prefer prots to big heals, with a party healer accompanying the protter to counter party pressure.

Wenspire · Jan 11, 2011, 03:12 AM // 03:12

I noticed you mentioned cast times when explaining the monk skills but did not for some of the rit skills. Not sure if you just forgot to add them in or not?

Heal spells cast through HB cast in half the time of most rit spells/weapons. This also means daze and hexes like Arcane Conundrum/Migraine affect you less which I find is an important point during battles that involve these situations.

Life is more of a passive party heal skill since it triggers at a set time, and not always when it is needed. PwK is a nice active heal skill when held prior to entering battle. After it's dropped, it's just a decent party heal when used again (10en, 80 heal, 1 sec cast time + however long drop-time takes and 25 sec recharge).

Heal Party heals for 108, has 1 sec cast and 2 sec recharge times. Definitely not the cheapest method to push the red bar at 15en. However, with it's 2 sec recharge time it allows for probably one of the quickest forms of party healing when necessary (limited of course to en on-hand). For potentially even larger party heals, Seed of Life is available. Ulta-fast cast time, recharge of 20sec (can be halved 20% of the time if cast via a staff) and with a duration can be extended a bit with an enchant mod.